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Posted by: bac Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:46 pm
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trout wrote:
Derek [Dwreck] wrote:
How many drug overdoses have been reported at religious/political events?


how many people have died in jesus's name?


I couldn't agree more! People killing themselves with drugs and music = bad. People killing themselves by stress from religion = OK.

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Posted by: Jamie Tyler Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:51 pm
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bac wrote:
I couldn't agree more! People killing themselves with drugs and music = bad. People killing themselves by stress from religion = OK.


People killing themselves with drugs (music doesn't kill people...that was proved in the 80's w/judas priest) = bad, but a form of darwinian natural selection.

People killing others in the name of [insert religion here] = far worse.


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Posted by: bac Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:07 pm
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Jamie Tyler wrote:
bac wrote:
I couldn't agree more! People killing themselves with drugs and music = bad. People killing themselves by stress from religion = OK.


People killing themselves with drugs (music doesn't kill people...that was proved in the 80's w/judas priest) = bad, but a form of darwinian natural selection.

People killing others in the name of [insert religion here] = far worse.


I hope I wasn't being misunderstood. When I said "People killing themselves by stress from religion = OK", I was being sarcastic and implying that society at large has no idea that the things that people are willing to become fanatical about which are deemed "normal" such as religion and idealogy are really no worse than what they view as a threat in partying and hedomism. I don't think it's "OK" but the a lot of people do.

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Posted by: Metz Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:19 pm
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bac wrote:
Jamie Tyler wrote:
bac wrote:
I couldn't agree more! People killing themselves with drugs and music = bad. People killing themselves by stress from religion = OK.


People killing themselves with drugs (music doesn't kill people...that was proved in the 80's w/judas priest) = bad, but a form of darwinian natural selection.

People killing others in the name of [insert religion here] = far worse.


I hope I wasn't being misunderstood. When I said "People killing themselves by stress from religion = OK", I was being sarcastic and implying that society at large has no idea that the things that people are willing to become fanatical about which are deemed "normal" such as religion and idealogy are really no worse than what they view as a threat in partying and hedomism. I don't think it's "OK" but the a lot of people do.


I think what Trout meant was how many people were murdered in the past 2000 years for not accepting Jesus as their savior i.e. the Crusades.

I could be wrong though.


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Posted by: Jamie Tyler Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:21 pm
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bac wrote:
I hope I wasn't being misunderstood. When I said "People killing themselves by stress from religion = OK", I was being sarcastic and implying that society at large has no idea that the things that people are willing to become fanatical about which are deemed "normal" such as religion and idealogy are really no worse than what they view as a threat in partying and hedomism. I don't think it's "OK" but the a lot of people do.


Gotcha...I obviously realized you were being sarcastic...My point is that religious fanatacism when misdirected can lead people to destroy others, as opposed to hedonistic behavior merely leading to the distruction of oneself. Which is worse? How many people have been killed, respectively, in the names of chistianity and islam? How many have died from drug overdoses?



Last edited by Jamie Tyler on Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted by: Derek Carney Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:23 pm
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The original question was:

Avalon (Valerie) wrote:
why don't these raids happen in different instnaces? Such as a religious gathering, or a political gathering.....

-----------------

I wasn't taking the side of the religious right or of the political view at all, merely stating the fact of the matter that religious and political gatherings do not get raided because, duh...this is so obvious, I can't believe we're even discussing this... the government is pro-religion and pro-politics, while RAVES on the other hand, have been the victim of anti-drug propoganda due to grossly inflated figures.

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Posted by: Jamie Tyler Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:28 pm
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Derek [Dwreck] wrote:
I wasn't taking the side of the religious right or of the political view at all, merely stating the fact of the matter that religious and political gatherings do not get raided because, duh...this is so obvious, I can't believe we're even discussing this... the government is pro-religion and pro-politics, while RAVES on the other hand, have been the victim of anti-drug propoganda due to grossly inflated figures.


But I love to take things OT...you haven't figured that out yet? Razz

I bet if you swept the next RNC you'd find enough coke to make pablo escabar turn over in his grave.


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Posted by: Derek Carney Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:30 pm
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JT... yeah, that was more in response to the Troutmaster. He directly quoted me and his reply seemed to infer that, although that was not the case, so I wanted to clarify.

And I wholeheartedly agree that way too many people have been killed in the Crusades, by Missionaries when they wouldn't convert, and by Islamic and other religious fanaticism.

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Posted by: pepper spray Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:15 pm
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I was killed in the crusades.


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Posted by: stoutxtc Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:47 pm
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With your mouth Steph I'm sure you were going to be killed regardless in ANY lifetime!
Razz

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Posted by: Jamie Tyler Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:55 pm
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Stiffy wrote:
I was killed in the crusades.


yeah, the ones in my dreams Razz


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Posted by: trout Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:56 pm
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Metz wrote:
I think what Trout meant was how many people were murdered in the past 2000 years for not accepting Jesus as their savior i.e. the Crusades.


exactamundo!

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Posted by: pepper spray Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:14 pm
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Jamie Tyler wrote:
Stiffy wrote:
I was killed in the crusades.


yeah, the ones in my dreams Razz


And your puny little head always seems to be getting crushed between my fingers.

*crush*


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Posted by: Jamie Tyler Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:22 pm
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Stiffy wrote:
And your puny little head always seems to be getting crushed between my fingers.

*crush*


"I crush your head! crush, crush."


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Posted by: nox Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:10 pm
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after seeing that i feel disgusted to even be the same species as those pig fucks!


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Posted by: pepper spray Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:14 pm
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OK - I'm about to post out the wazzoo here. But here's a lot of shit I found....

Official Statement and Information from the Promoters of Versus.
taken from www.utrave.org



Quote:
First off, we would like to thank all of the people who have come to our side in the wake of this deplorable incident. We apologize for not being able to provide you all with information faster. We are doing everything we can for people who were affected by the actions of the police. We as community have been underestimated. The finger has been waved about our character and ability. Because of this, now is the time to stand up together and show the world exactly how we don’t plan to take this lying down and teach a couple old dogs a thing or two about what character is. So, this is what we need to do…

To put a stop to any rumors, or false statements that have been cropping up, we would like to clarify a couple of key issues.

Was the party permitted?

Yes, period, end of story. Now for the reason this has been in question: According to the county laws

(http://www.utahcountyonline.com/app...ATTY/Chap13.pdf)

in Section 13-4-2-1:

Required.

No person shall permit, maintain, promote, conduct,
advertise, act as entrepreneur, undertake, organize,
manage, or sell or give tickets to an actual or
reasonably anticipated assembly of two hundred fifty
(250) or more people which continues or can
reasonably be expected to continue for twelve (12) or
more consecutive hours, whether on public or private
property unless a license to hold the assembly has
first been issued by the County Commissioners. (Ord.
No. 1971-4, Section 2, 7-7-71) (emphasis added)

It states that if the party was to exceed 250 people OR go over 12 consecutive hours we would have needed to clear it with the county commissioner.

The FACT is, that although the party was to exceed 250 people, it was NOT to go over 12 hours. This is evidenced by the DJ’s time slots, and the agreement between Performance Audio and Brandon Fullmer. The permit was granted, and then seized by the Utah County police, clearly stated across the top “Utah County Health Department Mass Gathering Permit.”

It was not made clear by any employee of Utah County or member of the Utah County Sheriffs Depatment at any time prior to the event that anything else may have been required by law.

Were any individuals injured by the police?

This should be self-evident that this statement is true. However, the issue needs to be addressed. The police have stated that no one was injured. There is photo and video evidence to prove otherwise. This evidence will be coming out in the press conference, which will be occurring soon.

Did the police use tazers?

Tazers were not used; however we have sufficient evidence and reason to believe that STUN guns were present and allegedly used.

Were dogs used to subdue party goers?

Yes, the K-9 units were present, and used in this operation. We have testimonials and evidence to show that the dogs were used as frightening motivational tools in evacuating the area plus you can distinctly hear them in the video.
Were cameras and videos broken or confiscated by the police?
This is true. We will provide photos and provide the actual cameras that were destroyed in the “operation” at the press conference.

Was Brandon Fullmer involved in promoting the event called Sequence?

No. For both Versus and Sequence, there is a promoter involved named Brandon, however, they are NOT the same person. No question. This is being addressed because the Utah County Sheriffs department seems to believe these individuals are the same, when in fact they are not

Did the police officers find any weapons?

Yes, the police did arrest and charge one person with possession of a firearm. This individual in question was the land owner’s son, on his own property.

Did the police seize large amounts of drugs?

Police did seize illicit drugs; a large portion of the drugs seized were drugs that the security officers had confiscated from event goers. Admittedly, this is a sticky issue. Police say security should not have those substances, but it is security’s job to keep the environment as safe as possible from potential harmful situations.

What are our feelings about police presence at these events?
Many times past we have hired off duty police officers to patrol and attend these events as added security. There have also been many times where police have come, and have walked through our parties. Had the police even attempted to contact us before hand, they would have been a welcome presence.

Was this event a secret, only for people “in the know”?
ABSOLUTELY not! This event was in no way, shape or form a secret. It was a highly publicized and promoted event. If this event had been a secret, or a covert operation in any way, why were great lengths taken to obtain permits? This event was no secret.

What are we as promoters doing about this situation?

1.We are currently working with legal representation to ensure we do not get steamrolled by Utah County. We are working with Brian M. Barnard who is considered to be one, if not the best civil rights attorney in the state of Utah. You can read about his many accomplishments online if you so desire.



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Posted by: pepper spray Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:18 pm
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An OpEd Piece from the a local paper:

http://www.heraldextra.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=62859

Quote:
Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 12:00 AM |

In Our View: Reviewing the rave

The Daily Herald


If you want to rave, you've got to behave.

That should be the new mantra for concertgoers who attend events in the backwoods.

Uprock Records of Salt Lake City promoted a rave concert in Diamond Fork on Saturday night that, unfortunately, was pretty typical.

It was billed as an "album release party," featuring live performances by bands from Miami and Great Britain. But young people know what raves are really about. They are loud, high-energy, all-night dance parties often fueled by drugs. Under-age drinking is common. The atmosphere of unrestraint fosters sexual assaults, drug overdoses, car burglaries, driving under the influence and other problems.

And so raves often draw the attention of law enforcement.

About 300 partygoers were in attendance, enough to trigger a county ordinance requiring a mass-gathering permit, which officials say had not been obtained by Uprock. No permit, no party. But the main reason for the raid was the expectation that illegal drugs and alcohol would be present. They were.

The gathering took place near the mouth of Diamond Fork in a 50-acre hay field Trudy Childs had leased to the promoter. The party pounded along until 11:30 p.m., when more than 90 law enforcement officers -- SWAT team members from Utah County, Provo and the Utah Department of Public Safety -- shut it down.

Some attendees have complained of excessive force by law enforcement. They say cops and "soldiers" pointed guns at them, punched girls in the face and unleashed an arsenal of everything from attack dogs to tear gas. "They proceeded to attack random people and push their might around on people who had done nothing," according to one e-mail. Said Josh Witbeck, a nightclub bar bouncer hired for security: "I'm not going to place all the blame on the police, but they treated every person here like a criminal."

Ravers are currently circulating video footage on the Internet to back up claims of police misconduct. We viewed the video and found no indication that the police acted improperly -- no tear gas, no shots fired, no dogs chewing on kids. But one blurry video is not conclusive.

Was this raid a bit heavy-handed? Should the entire weight of police weaponry (including military-style guns capable of full-automatic fire), special tactics, dogs and helicopters be used to break up a music concert with a few hundred kids, some of whom are drunk or high? There are only a couple of ways out of the Childs property, and a crowd is easily contained. Is this truly a situation that requires full riot gear, including black face coverings that lend a Ninja-like quality to the operation?

Such questions can be answered another time, as they deal with how the law is enforced, not whether it should be. Clearly, some enforcement was needed in Diamond Fork on Saturday night.

Let's state some basic facts, just for the record. Officers of the law carry guns. It is part of what they do. They often carry nonlethal weapons, too, such as bean-bag launchers or tear gas. They make plans for dealing with potentially difficult situations. Why? Because it's their job to enforce the laws that have been duly enacted by elected authorities.

It's called enforcement for a reason. Police don't need to ask politely.

The best way to stay out of range of the police is to obey the law. It's a lesson too many people have not learned.

Having said that, however, we are concerned about the process that led to this raid, starting with Utah County permits. Commissioner Steve White was strangely evasive on this question. When asked point-blank whether a mass-gathering permit had been issued, he said he would not answer. He referred the Herald to law enforcement sources and the county attorney's office.

Childs, the property owner, said all the permits were in order and that officers seized them at the gate. It was a legal gathering, she said.

To be sure, there were a number of drug- and alcohol-related arrests and citations arising from the rave. These are fair game by any measure. Once a crime is committed, a permit may be considered null and void. But of the 43 citations reported by the Utah County Sheriff's Office, about half appear directly related to the raid itself -- disorderly conduct, failure to disperse and related acts. Most of the others could have been dealt with on a case-by-case basis, without shutting down a concert at which the majority were not breaking the law.

A massive police assault on virtually any public gathering (a BYU football game, for example) would uncover similar illegalities, from drugs to weapons to expired driver's licenses. But if a crime is committed during a BYU football game, the game is not stopped. Offenders are trundled off individually. A general suspicion that something illegal might happen at a public gathering, even a rave, may not be the best basis from which to launch a major law enforcement action.

Childs said she has retained an attorney to pursue the matter. It's a sticky wicket that illustrates some of the ambiguities inherent in a free society and the balance between freedom and responsibility.

Stay tuned for developments.

This story appeared in The Daily Herald on page A6.


Comments forum:
http://www.harktheherald.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=63516



Last edited by pepper spray on Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted by: pepper spray Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:24 pm
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Buzz Forum...people not at all unfamiliar to being shut down.

http://www.buzzlife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62975


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Posted by: pepper spray Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:23 pm
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Wikipedia: Wikinews

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Dance_party_broken_up_by_police_in_Utah%2C_USA


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Posted by: Avalon Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:23 pm
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Derek [Dwreck] wrote:
The original question was:

Avalon (Valerie) wrote:
why don't these raids happen in different instnaces? Such as a religious gathering, or a political gathering.....

-----------------

I wasn't taking the side of the religious right or of the political view at all, merely stating the fact of the matter that religious and political gatherings do not get raided because, duh...this is so obvious, I can't believe we're even discussing this... the government is pro-religion and pro-politics, while RAVES on the other hand, have been the victim of anti-drug propoganda due to grossly inflated figures.


It took all that to come around to what I was alluding to in the original post????? and to add to that..I like how the one article mentioned a big football game....now when do you think we'll see such a raid at a say, OSU game or Superbowl...bet you'd find as much crap at one of those. And if the point is cracking down on illegalities well then..... Rolling Eyes

btw...you all now I actually don't have anything against religion..when it's actually about religion (and not some hypocrite's propoganda)


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