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Posted by: Jamie Tyler Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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 Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:43 am
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 Post Post subject: Ableton V. Reason...

Location: sagamore hills
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This is for those with some experience...if you were to purchase one of these programs to begin doing production work at home, which would it be and why?

Also any suggestions on midi keyboards/controllers are welcome. The m-audio ozonic looks cool but I don't know that it's worth the expense when it appears that I could get something serviceable for 1/2 the price.

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Posted by: Deviant Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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 Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:54 pm
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Location: Cleveland, OH USA
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I haven't used Ableton yet, and I have used Reason, but for me, I would probably go with Ableton, because it seems to suit the compositional style that I have always been wishing for with Cubase. When I work on a track in Cubase, I'll arrange all my loops, then loop the whole song while muting and unmuting tracks. then i'll wish that cubase would have remembered all of the mutes and unmutes that i did, because then my song would basically be done. well, that is pretty much what ableton can do, as i understand it (in addition to loads of other stuff, of course).

that being said, reason is a kick-ass program. i know a lot of producers who do entire tracks in it. i definitely couldn't -- i hate reason as a sequencer. but the modules, effects, and samples in reason are outstanding, and it's great to use even as a VST "drum machine" within Cubase -- it gets you a lot of power without burning up a lot of processor.

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Posted by: Brandon A Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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 Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:15 pm
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Location: Cleveland
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Ableton all the way. As a complete newbie to the whole production/composition aspect of EDM I have found Ableton to be remarkably easy to pick up and very user-friendly in the ability to find out how to perform more complex tasks. I've had Reason for a couple years and I was never able to figure out the whole sequencing and recording/writing aspect of it. Mind you, I never really gave Reason an in-depth shot, but right from the get go I picked up Ableton significantly easier.

As for controllers, I asked Strauss about this a while back and pretty much took him up word for word. I picked up trigger finger and the 02 controller, and am looking to get the evolution (mixer) here soon to complete the set. You can work out a pretty good deal with Guitar Center if you haggle them a bit. I got Ableton 4 (with free 5 upgrade) Trigger Finger and the 02 for $640 out the door. Not bad for a $500 piece of software and $150-200 for each controller.

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Posted by: thomar Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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 Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:46 pm
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reason is better, ableton is easier. jamie, my recommendation is numero 5.

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Posted by: Derek Carney Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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 Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:47 pm
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Location: Oakland, California
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I suggest that you download BUZZ which is free first:

http://www.buzzmachines.com/

It is similar to Reason.

Put the money into Ableton and a Midi controller.

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Posted by: Archived Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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 Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:13 pm
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Location: Omnipresence, Ohio
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I already gave Jamie a mini explanation, but I think i'll post something for the benefit of others investigating this same thing..

Ableton and Reason are two very different animals - on one hand you have Reason which is strictly a sound generation tool. You cannot record into it; the only way you can bring in sound is by importing into the samplers (NNXT or NN19) via Recycle (which is an additional app, not free). The code is very efficient so you don't have to worry too much about the CPU usage.. which is a very good thing. The new features and components in 3.0 are really nice too. The mastering tools make things sound much more professional, and the Remote technology makes MIDI assignments much more plug-n-play.

Ableton on the other hand, has become really THE integral tool in my studio now. The 'spreadsheet' (aka Session) side of it allows you to get ideas down extremely quickly, and then once you're happy with your sound design you can arrange things in the 'arrangement' view which is the normal left-to-right style DAW view. Things are extremely automated, and the built-in instruments and effects are surprisingly flexible (although not compared to Reason). Where it beats Reason is the ability to record audio (obviously), and the flexibility you have with the Session / Arrangement dynamic. Where it loses is CPU efficiency and a more limited array of instruments and effects.

But the best part is that Reason can be sequenced through Ableton via the Rewire protocol, so the answer to the question either/or is only limited by your financial situation. It doesn't have to be one or the other. (However, if you're just starting, I would recommend picking one and digging in before you expand. Master one tool before adding another.)

OK enough ranting. Hope that helps those who are looking.

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Posted by: Avalon Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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 Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:11 pm
Joined: 10 Feb 2004  Posts: 1922
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Location: Cleveland
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Oh God.... Confuse (Couldn't find a banging the head against the all icon)

I suppose I better start saving more money.

Can I play with the new debt toys at least too??


...though I must say, I would love to hear what Jamie would come up with (after he swears at a computer for over a month! :wink: )

Sorry for adding completely nothing worthwhile to this thread.

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Posted by: Jam_III [Joe] Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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 Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:29 pm
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Location: Las Vegas, NV
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as far as the controllers go, i have an old 40 key keyboard i use when i want to play a full size melody such as a piano line, but i just got the m-audio O2 also so i can have some knobs to tweak and i'm very happy with it, it does everything i need it to. i looked into getting the ozone but the price difference between it and the O2 made the decision for me, make sure to check out ebay before buying, i got my O2 off there for *very* cheap, it came to only about $60 with shipping!

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Posted by: djmoose Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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 Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:39 pm
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I've really been looking into Abelton...especially the new version.

Now, I have Sonar 4 Studio...and since Sonar 5 just came out...was pretty much going to upgrade.

Now I'm wondering how I could use both together. (or if I would even need to) I might have to make a call to my Sweetwater Rep....

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Posted by: The Scythian Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:29 am
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Quote:
When I work on a track in Cubase, I'll arrange all my loops, then loop the whole song while muting and unmuting tracks. then i'll wish that cubase would have remembered all of the mutes and unmutes that i did, because then my song would basically be done


Actually, someone might be able to correct me on this, but if one were to do what deviant is doing, while recording a wav file from an external software program, you might be able to pull off doing that for yourself. That's how I do it with Reason.

I'm sure there must be some level of audio degradation from this. Especially when running a system heavy program like cubase. However, it might be a good way to sit back and learn how a track will play out in perfection

That's how I do it in Reason though. I usually set my mute keys to the numeric pad on my keyboard. Tracks that need to fade in will get thrown to some knob somewhere. Oscillators, filters, phasers etc will be mapped all over the place. I'll get those loops together (self compose as much as I can,or FEEL LIKE I should say), press record on creative wavestudio, and we're off.

Control, I would say get somethin that feels right.

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Posted by: Nick_S Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:10 pm
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Location: thieveland, bitches.
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buy hardware.


that said...reason's sound engine sux unless you rewire it to cubase(and even at that, there is still sample alaising with the nn-19,nn-xt, redrum, and dr. rex if u pitch your samples down too low)...if u dont wanna go thru that whole ordeal, go with abelton which seems to have a better native sound engine...

oh yeah, and buy some hardware.

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Posted by: The Scythian Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:38 pm
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I believe it was Dee-Lite who coined the phrase "groove is in the heart."

Hardware IS THE TITS. HOWEVER....very expensive.

Jamie, do some research on your own, see what's right for you. See what you think you can work with.

I mean we've all heard the story right??....

Kurt Cobain played the shittiest beet up guitar he could find....yadda yadda yadda....

Sold a million albums....yadda yadda yadda

Not sayin that selling a million albums is the point, but there is a reason a douche like Kurt was so successful. That shit came from the heart.

Ableton, and Cubase are officccially on my list for winter purchase.

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Posted by: firstdivision Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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 Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:53 am
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Location: CrAkron
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get cubase and a vst called albino

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Posted by: Derek Carney Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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 Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:57 am
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Location: Oakland, California
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John D. Schoeneman wrote:
Kurt Cobain played the shittiest beet up guitar he could find....yadda yadda yadda....

Sold a million albums....yadda yadda yadda


Although the guitar may have been shitty... the production was slick and polished. Listen harder. :wink:

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Posted by: ChristopherReddick Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:54 am
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Can I piss in the soup here?

I use Digital Performer 4.6 as my front end for MIDI, sequencing and effects... then instead of reason for 'sounds'... I have the MachFive sampler http://www.motu.com/products/software/machfive/body.html/en

This is such a versitile sampler, that it's compatible with any sample format... for example.. EXS, Giga, Akai, Emu, etc... its not like reason where i can only load reason refils. this thing allows you to load any sample from any format you can get your hands on. its easy to use, and loads as a plug in within your host app. no saving a separate 'song' file or any of that bullshit... the settings are stored within the project file of your host app.

Another toy to play with... http://www.motu.com/products/software/mx4/ MX4. This is the real deal... reason patches are made with tools like this. why not go straight to the source of the creativity. listen to some of the samples.

Oh, and not to be biased at all.. but DP, and MX4 are mac only... Very Happy

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Posted by: The Scythian Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:22 am
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Location: ...all up in your tight ass!
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Quote:
Although the guitar may have been shitty... the production was slick and polished. Listen harder. Wink


I hear if it wasn't for Chris Rubin, Mozart wouldn't have sounded nearly as good.

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Posted by: The Scythian Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:24 am
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oh I'm sorry, is it RICK????

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Posted by: ROBTRONIX Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:38 am
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Deviant wrote:
I haven't used Ableton yet, and I have used Reason, but for me, I would probably go with Ableton, because it seems to suit the compositional style that I have always been wishing for with Cubase. When I work on a track in Cubase, I'll arrange all my loops, then loop the whole song while muting and unmuting tracks. then i'll wish that cubase would have remembered all of the mutes and unmutes that i did, because then my song would basically be done. well, that is pretty much what ableton can do, as i understand it (in addition to loads of other stuff, of course).


This is definitely the way I feel about Live also after seeing a demo from Strauss & also downloading a free trial version. It enables you to layout in your linear sequence mode "live on the fly" like actually making your music more like a musician than sequencing loops the traditional way.

Deviant I know what your saying about the mute/ un-mute thing, this is totally something that Ableton does great.
Have you messed around with SX3's "Play Order Track" feature at all?
It's not exactly what your trying to do but it is a really cool feature of SX that enables you to really lay out a full song arrangement fast.
I'm not sure what version your using but check it out. I laid out almost a full Hip-Hop track in 1/4 the time it would normally take me to copy and past out all the different parts.

There's one thing I don't totally agree on though about Ableton Live.
"Not to diss anyone who uses this the right way" but I think Dj'ing with it can be really cheesy if you think about it. Every piece of music on your computer is automatically tempo matched to your master BPM using this software. In other words any Joe Shmo on the street who has this can claim to be dj'ing when there is absolutely no skill involved in say "Beatmatching" your rhythms together.
Stand there, push a button, be an artist.


Sorry I just believe in you gotta have skillz to pay the bills.

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Posted by: ROBTRONIX Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:39 am
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and seriously don't get me wrong on that last statement. and I know all the possibilities that it does have for someone doing a live dj set with it.
I just mean that it could be used as a cop out.

Strauss you use this software to its fullest extent. How do you feel about this?

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Posted by: ramzi Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:39 am
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 Post Post subject: FLStudio

Location: Cleveland
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FLStudio is a very nice product and an alternative to Reason. Great out of the box or super flexible when used with no presets.

http://www.flstudio.com

Free upgrades for life, great on-line community, well programmed.

I don't believe in the past three years it has crashed.

Ramzi

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